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 Post subject: FPS (frames per second) bug
PostPosted: August 21st, 2007, 1:56 pm 
senior member

Joined: August 20th, 2007, 12:17 pm
Posts: 3155
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
(Originally posted on BZC in September 2006)

I made a contact with one of the original BZ programmers regarding our FPS problem. I told him what is that bug doing to this game and how future, with even more powerful computers coming, doesn't look very bright. Without something done, things can only become worse. I suggested him some kind of patch which will lock everybody's FPS at 60, because 60 FPS is the sweet spot and anything above that gives unfair advantage. At the moment, the only thing that can lock FPS is vertical sync (option in a graphic card), but V-sync can only lock FPS to the monitor refresh rate (60Hz - 60FPS, 85Hz - 85FPS), so even those with CRT monitors have advantage over those with LCD monitors (if they don't manualy limit FPS to 60 in graphic card settings). Also, there are two things that can override V-sync: playing in window mode and playing in software mode. So, even though we all talked about V-sync fix before, we actually need FPS fix.

For those who don't understand how FPS impacts on BZ gameplay I will explain it with two tests:

Test 1 – set refresh rate on your monitor at 60Hz, and turn V-Sync ON in your graphic card's settings (this will give you 60FPS in the game). Of course, you have to be in a full screen and hardware mode. Open a game with 5 minutes mission time. In the same time the game starts you start your stopwatch. After a 5 minutes, you will see that both times are synchronized.

Test 2 – set your monitor refresh rate at any value you want and turn V-Sync OFF this time (this will give you more FPS than 60, how much exactly it depends on your computer configuration). If you don't have graphic cards control panel and/or you cant find your V-sync, then just start BZ in window or software mode for performing this test. For example, let's say that you got 200 FPS. Now start measuring mission time vs real time (stopwatch time) like in the first test. After 5 minutes you will notice that mission time is over and stopwatch is at 4.20 (if you by turning V-Sync OFF got more or less FPS than 200 this result will be slightly different).

60 FPS –> mission time vs real time – 5min : 5min
200 FPS –> mission time vs real time – 4.23min: 5min
300 sec : 263 sec = 1,14 : 1
200 FPS is 14% faster than 60FPS

I made few more tests and the results are: 100 FPS is 4% faster, 300 FPS is 24% faster and so on. For every 10 extra FPS you are 1% faster.
Conclusion is that with 60 FPS (V-Sync ON) mission time is the same as real time, but with more FPS than 60 (V-Sync OFF) mission time runs faster than real time.

60FPS 0%
100 FPS 4%
200 FPS 14%
300 FPS 24%

Now, I will explain how that difference affects the game. We know that a person with 200 FPS has 37 seconds advantage in a 5 minutes game, but what that really means? It means advantage of a 14 % in every segment of the game. 200 FPS ship will move, fire, strafe etc. 14% faster. His stabbers, mags, rockets will be 14% faster. While ship with 60 FPS travels 500 meters, ship with 200 FPS travels 570 meters. 200 FPS ship can exchange fire for a while and at any point turn and head for ammo and/or repair. 60 FPS ship can't catch him, because after every 100 meters, speed up ship gets advantage of a 14 meters. His pilot is falling from the air to the ground 14% faster, and he is very hard to snipe because of that. You also probably noticed how certain persons can destroy your recycler very fast. It is not because they are good, it is because of their too big FPS. I could write a book about unfair advantages of a V-Sync OFF, but the thing is that you already know all this, because you have all seen it. You just didn't know what it was. You thought that it was lag, E-W bug, players skill or even a hack. FPS difference is sometimes very hard to notice, and sometimes is so big that it is easier to notice than a slight odf hack. By now you all know bomber TailSpin (last week he was flying by the name 2Slow, this week he is RearAdmiral). His speed is hard not to notice. He for sure has more than 300 FPS. If you don't believe me, try once following him when he's heading for repair or ammo, try to catch him, it's impossible. Only way for killing him is to step on his way. Watch his rockets going fast as SP stabbers, or watch him when his pilot is falling to the ground. All other pilots (with reasonable FPS) are falling slow like they have parachute on, but it looks like Tailspin's pilot parachute won't open. He's funny guy. The same goes for Reaper, he runs BZ in window mode and he is getting 250FPS. There are lot of those characters in BZ and with new computers coming their number is rising.

while sitting yesterday in the lobby and telling people about this post, in a few hours, i got around 10 new enemies. hehe, not that i didn't expect it, but i had to mention it here. those who fight against hackers and tweakers will always have bunch of enemies, it is a price i got to pay. i can live with that, can you? unfortunately every second ship in bz is speed up, but what to expect from people when even our yesterdays bz guru (reaper) has 250 fps. people need heroes, people need role models. i can't blame them if they found something in reaper, because i did too at one point in the past, i saw his love towards this game. now i found out the truth about him and his 250 fps. he is making new weapons for bze and in the same time he is cheating all bz players. whatever he did for battlezone, he is now taking it back. i never slept better in my whole life after i wrote that post. how you slept reaper?

you guys should see sir stratking's apc pilots in strat... he admitted 140fps, but when i saw those little creatures firing like crazy and him falling from the sky like he has weights around his neck i realized that his fps is much bigger. i remember when few months ago warchild said to reaper that apc pilots in 1.4l are hacked, not stock. he said that after a game with stratking. i laughed back then, but now i know what he was talking about. i can understand why are those like stratking, reaper and tailspin/rear admiral exploiting this bug, they are not very good players and they are trying to compensate that with big fps, but what i just can't understand is why some good players need extra 50, 60 fps, just a little advantage to be even better. this is just a game, right? you can only win or lose, you can't really die.

maybe we yesterday needed a fix for flash cannon, but today i don't really care about that, i care about fps bug and east-west bug. bb1, your skin for lander looks very nice, i'm so happy because of it. you just keep the good work!

i noticed how some people are defending name, not person. i don't care if his name is reaper, he is cheater. if you defend him, after you saw his speed, you are same as him. some also like to say: 'i played with him since '98, he was always fair.' but guess what, he is now on a new comp with 300 fps and he is not fair anymore. he has v-sync off or he is playing in window mode. there will always be those who will abuse this bug, when it's so easy to do it; 1 click and you are better pilot, you don't have to practice much, you just need good comp. even 2 years old machine can give you around 300 fps. now when you know how this fps bug function, when it is not enigma for some anymore, it is just on you to decide will you exploit it; are you honest or not?

few examples of a fps bug in a strat:

scavenger - 5 / 4
minelayer, light tank, turret - 7 / 5,6
factory, rocket tank, armory, tank, constructor, apc - 10 / 8
scout - 12 / 9,6
walker, bomber, howitzer - 15 / 12

first number is time (in seconds) needed for building units with 60 fps. second number is building with 260 fps (reaper's speed).
as you see, difference is from 1 sec to 3 sec. not much dmer would say, but every stratter knows that in a tough games every second is important and different units and buildings are destroyed/built numerous times.
1 second for a scavenger is not much, but you should know that besides faster build, every single scavenger of 260fps guy will also collect scrap 20% faster. scary thought...
let's take a look at what can be done in 80 seconds... 60 fps player will have 8 tanks, 260 fps player will have 10 tanks - big difference! you already know that 8 normal tanks are weaker than 8 speed up tanks, because they fire and move faster... imagine 8 normal vs 10 speed up... not a nice scene...

if 60 fps and 260 fps guy start exchanging fire, in situation when they are equal dmers, 260 guy wins because, among many advantages, his stabbers travel faster. in situation when 60fps guy is slightly better dmer, they will both finish in the air at the same time. so, you gotta be far better dmer to win a dogfight over speed up guy...
also, during dm, shorter distance goes on a hand of speed up ship, he will not exchange fire from 150 meters, he will try to come as close as he can, when distance is 50m or less he can kill you even faster because of his faster stabbers.

from the beginning of the game till the end, speed up guy has huge advantage. he deploys rec faster, builds scavengers faster who collect faster. he builds constructor faster who builds silo, hangar, supply, barracks, towers faster. he repairs and reloads faster. he builds all units faster. his minelayers lay mines faster, his howitzers get into right position faster and they are shooting mortars faster. his tanks and bombers can reach opponents base faster, they can destroy it faster. he can rebuild lost units faster etc. did i forget to say how faster he is?

as you can see, in strat, speed up tank of your opponent is the smallest worry you will have...

the last example i will give, but not the least important is destroying of a recycler; for a long time i thought that some guys are good in destroying recs. that simply isn't true. reason for them being "better" than others is their fps. with fps high enough ai can't hit them if they spin around. in that case only unit that can stop them is you. if you are not there 20 units and 10 towers isn't enough, because ai is programmed to shoot at 60fps ships. speed up ship can only get hit if he stops moving. if he goes for your rec with full speed ai simply can't stop him, he can strafe with an ease until rec is gone...
60 fps guy needs 15 seconds for a rec. when you see ninja tank (with 260 fps) spining around your rec, and your ai units missing him because he is too fast for them, even 15 seconds wouldn't be enough for saving your rec. knowing that 260fps guy needs only 12 is discouraging. in most cases, you can't stop it, so it is better to build 2 scavs and call your constructor...

good stratters with 60 fps will not have problems with average stratter with big fps. that's why is jenny losing every big game, despite her turbo speed. i just don't like the fact that i can't help those strat beginners when they run onto jenny. i saw too many new stratters, after few of those unfair games with jenny and other tweakers, turning into dmers...

What we can do about it while we are waiting for the patch? We (fair players) can unite and fight against those who are not fair, against those who exploit this FPS bug. Those with CRT monitors are not our problem, they are not doing anything wrong, they have to keep their monitors at 85Hz and anyway their +25FPS above normal (2.5% faster) is not a big deal, but Reaper's +190FPS above normal (19% faster) and Tailspin's +240FPS above normal (24% faster) is a very big problem. First we need to spread the word about this, then politely ask speed up ships to turn their speed down. If that doesn't work, only fight on the battlefield will remain. I'll tell you what I do in the games when I spot a speed up ship; first I ask speed up ship to turn his V-sync ON, or whatever he is using to get extra FSP (window mode, software mode). If he refuses or denies it, I warn everybody of his presence. Then people can see with their own eyes what is going on, if he's speed up or not. If he stays speed up in the game, I just go killing him, I ignore others. Speed up ship soon starts to eject and calling me names, and soon he quits. Mission accomplished. If I'm not alone in that fight and others help me to get rid of the cheater he will next time think twice before coming to the game with such a big FPS.

Thank you for your cooperation,

Mr. Spock

P.S. Few cheaters screenies (click on them to expand):

ß§«§ìgfrèíd[MGen] (more than 200 FPS...)
Image
Image

Oc Bort (he removed FPS counter completely...)
Image

Oc Loki explaining to Oc Bort how to play Bz at 300FPS, clanmates always stick together :)
Image

reaper aka Dx (240 FPS)
Image

Image

Edit:
after my fps bug explanation a programmer fixed fps bug in bze, but not in bz. in bze you might see more than 60 fps, but the game will act like you have only 60.

How to limit FPS at 60 (on ATI graphic cards) in bz:
Catalyst Control Center - Graphics Settings
Display Options - 3D Refresh Rate Override - 60 Hz
3D - All Settings - Wait for vertical refresh - Always On
(on nvidia is a little bit different)


Last edited by Mr. Spock on September 6th, 2007, 10:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: April 30th, 2008, 2:43 pm 

Joined: September 21st, 2007, 9:18 pm
Posts: 251
Tug wrote:
And now for some technical details.

BZ uses a function called GetTickCount to figure out how long time each frame has taken to draw. GetTickCount returns the number of milliseconds (ms, 0.001 second) that has passed since windows was started. The fact that it returns times in ms is a bit missleading; It doesn't necessary "tick" every millisecond. On Win9x it actually ticks every ms (So they claim, I have nothing to verify it on) while on WinXP it normally ticks every 15.625 ms.
BZ uses this GetTickCount something like this:

ticks = GetTickCount()
Display a frame of bz.
time step = ticks - GetTickCount


The "time step" is what battlezone will use on the next frame to compute velocities and elapsed time and who knows what. Now, the problem with this is that if bz completes a frame before GetTickCount has ticked the time step will be zero. A time step of zero is bad, and can lead to "division by zero" and other nasty stuff (like confused ai?). The bz programmers thought of this and added a safety check; If the timer hasn't ticked bz will use the time step 1 ms. And that is why bz runs to fast if played on xp (and probably vista too) with an fps above 64. On Win9x bz should be safe up to about 1000 fps, but as I said I'm not sure about the 1 ms tick.

Now a little example of what happens on XP at 200 fps. It a frame takes 5 ms (1000/200) to complete at 200 fps. I've rounded the tick to each 15 ms to keep it simple. In reality it alternates between 15 and 16.


Code:
frame  "real time" GetTickCount "bz time step"
1            0              0             1
2            5              0             1
3            10            0              1
4            15            15            15



In the real world 15 ms has gone bye but bz thinks 18 has gone bye. Thats 20% speed up. In reality 200 fps would give about 14% speed increase, but close enough to illustrated how it happens...


Here are some numbers on speed up:
60 0%
65 0.197%
75 1.18%
85 2.16%
100 3.84%
150 8.66%
201 13.8%
249 18.6%
305 24.1%
407 34.4%
448 38.4%
670 60.6%
1027 96.4%
1806 174%
2940 288%

Any one for a game at 3000 fps?

Sorry for the rant and the horrible formatting

/Tug

ps.
A little known fact is that if you play bz at less then 5 fps the time will slow down.


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 Post subject: FPS Bug - A Question
PostPosted: May 2nd, 2008, 1:56 pm 

Joined: September 21st, 2007, 2:34 pm
Posts: 6
Sorry for just creating a topic for this question, but you have the other topic locked so I couldn't post there. :)

Out of curiosity, which BZ1 Programmer did you contact about the FPS bug?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: May 3rd, 2008, 10:40 pm 
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Joined: August 20th, 2007, 12:17 pm
Posts: 3155
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Topic is locked because FPS discussion took a place on other forum long time ago.

I started it, Tug the programmer confirmed my results, YG forum admins (Killer Instinct and reaper) ended it. They locked the topic and banned me for telling those things in the public.

They are both FPS tweakers because they play Bz in a window. They wanted to hide existence of a bug so only they could use it without others being aware of it.

I contacted George Sutty, but reaper got him first. The rest we know... reaper has 2 FPS patches, 1 for Bz, 1 for BzE. The one for Bz he keeps on a safe place, the one for BzE is already integrated in the game. Like that he wants to force us to play his "fixed" mod.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: May 4th, 2008, 3:27 am 
dummy

Joined: February 23rd, 2008, 10:21 pm
Posts: 142
I talked to him about that a while back...

the reason he quit working on BZ 1 is because of the attitude of the players who complained when ever he fixed something...


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PostPosted: May 4th, 2008, 3:13 pm 
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Joined: August 20th, 2007, 12:17 pm
Posts: 3155
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Huh?

Reaper fixed something in Bz and we missed it? What? When?

Then somebody was complaining so reaper took those fixes back and erased our memory of the whole event?

Nah, I will tell you what really happened...

Reaper got "Battlezone" in March 1998 and DM-ed a bit. In November 1998 he got "Populous: The Beginning" and that game changed his life completely. Role of God became his life obsession. Then he somehow got Bz code (he probably stole it) and started changing stuff. He knew that he won't be able to make unnecessary and stupid changes to Bz and force people to play BzR (read: Battlezone reaper or raped Battlezone), so he tricked us all and changed name of his project, from BzR to BzE (Bz "enhanced"). Sounds like a better Bz, but in fact it's silly reaper's mod.

Bz and BzE are incompatible so he's been killing Bz for years, not fixing it, because it was obvious that Bz has to die so BzE could live. He's playing God in BzE and in the same time he's exploiting all Bz bugs to make BZ look broken. Great BzE commercial, isn't it? He plays Bz in a window and gets 150-500 FPS, depending on map. He was trying to cover that up by saying that FPS is bogus. He tried to make people believe that all machines on XP are equally "infected" by FPS bug. All BZC dummies believed him, he was man with the code, and his words of "wisdom" were never questioned.

When I asked how much FPS is too much, reaper responded with bunch of lies:

reaper wrote:
Feb 27, 2007 - Feb 28, 2007

it's not the fps that matters, for example.. if i'm getting 500 fps and my monitor is set to 75Hz refresh rate, the most i can see is 75 fps not 500. Sync On doesn't work for everyone in XP so for anyone it doesn't work for, they get 10% more speed in everything in the game.

Forget about fps over what the monitor is set at, it's meaningless, the game can say any number of fps it doesn't matter

it's not the fps it's your video clock rate and the driver thats allowing bz to run faster, frames per seconds is limited by the monitor setting and then humans can only see 60fps.

What i said is the fps in the game, no matter what it says above the monitor's setting, is bogus.

Depends on your video driver, my 9800 pro gives me anywhere from 150 to 500 fps and my game speed doesn't vary up or down with the fps. But i'm using old drivers too, these newer drivers let the game run as fast as the video clock rate will go.


When I posted my preliminary FPS bug results, reaper partially admitted that he's aware of the problem:

reaper wrote:
Mar 02, 2007

my tests at 60 75 and 85hz and 185fps and 375 fps was all the same and when i compare that to win98se its all about 13% more then normal speed.
Only thing this proves is the speed can vary widly depending on video card and driver and what OS your on. The only way to deal with it is in bz code or don't worry about it and play for fun, forget about score and who's going faster.


When I posted my complete FPS results in July 2007, reaper was mad, he was furious. People finally started understanding that bug... fair guys started limiting their PC's to 60FPS and spotting tweakers like reaper with high FPS.

Reaper needed plan B, because plan A to destroy Bz was a failure, FPS bug didn't kill Bz after all.
At that point hacker Daniel C. (RunningIntoMyBalls / MadCroatDisease, 440dartgts / RAMBO / ...) started hacking the sh*t out of Bz with different IP ranges. Reaper saw his chance and turned notorious hacker into his plan B. He offered him full support on 2 Bz forums, YG (BZC) and Sector 0. Reaper is admin of both so that was easily done.
Few guys realized what is reaper doing and tried to warn the community. Reaper "fixed" that problem by falsly posting their IP's as bad guys. Other YG members were also helpful to hacker, they banned members who saw hacks. Daniel C. was saved, and he could continue hacking Bz in the name of reaper, in the name of BzE. In fact, he is hacking Bz in the moment I'm writing this.

440dartgts wrote:
I do not see why you all dont go to the new version of the game unless your just an idiot. Maybe I will just hack the crap out of the original untill you all migrate over there.


MadCroatDisease aka 440dartgts is not Bz enemy #1, reaper is.


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PostPosted: July 22nd, 2008, 8:06 pm 
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Joined: August 20th, 2007, 12:17 pm
Posts: 3155
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
reaper posted this on yg forum 5 days ago:

Dx. wrote:
Unfourtunatly, vsync on at 60hz only limits frames pers second, it does not fix the timer bug which means while a player may not move as fast his weapons still can shoot faster than a slower pc.


that is obvious lie, told only to promote his silly mod.

why nobody blinked after he posted such a nonsense? did you all forget how fps bug (aka timer bug) functions? or you can't think with own head and you have to believe in anything lying reaper says? heh, and you wonder why we call you yg dummies...


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PostPosted: July 23rd, 2008, 9:18 pm 

Joined: April 18th, 2008, 1:08 pm
Posts: 16
I admit, I didn't know about FPS bug before I read Mr. Spock's explanation. I doubt that anyone in the old days did. I remember having up to 100FPS back then, but I knew some guys who had much more. Nobody called them tweakers.

I have pretty strong computer now (Intel Q6700 with 512MB graphic card) and there's a great difference whether I have vsync off or on. Vsync on limits my FPS at 60 and everything, including my weapons is at 60. I tested speeds with my cousin who has old P4 2.6. While we both had vsync on we were equally fast. Our weapons too.

Dx dude doesn't know what he's talking about or he's deliberately lying.


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