Battlezone 1

*DISCLAIMER*

I "KNOW" this is going to be very controversial, and will probably not result in any sort of concensus nor resolution of any sort.... "BUT"

THE TOPIC(S)

(1)"DUAL BLAST" and (2)APC Pilots.

#1 - I just don't konw a diplomatic way to say this... In *MY* opinion, "DUAL BLAST" is not a "STRATEGY". Being able to load the CCA side up, with DUAL BLAST in TANKS, DUAL BLAST in TURRETS, DUAL BLAST in Gun Towers, DUAL BLAST in Walkers, to which there is NO EQUIVALENT in NSDF units, is not a "strategy", its (again, in MY "opinion") merely an exploitation of the game. TRUST ME, I "get" the Dual ChainGun issue in CCA GunTowers, in over 10 years of life around BZ, I still don't have a clue as to why that seems equitable.

#2 - The APC Pilots... again, in *MY* opinion, is another exploitation, although it is BALANCED between NSDF and CCA. The reason I think its an exploitation, is the gross inability of any "AI" to DEFEND against APC Pilots. YES, mines are tough on the "armor" of pilots, but the problem is, that there is no unit in BZ that effectively defends against a swarm of PILOTS. *AND* when many many APC Pilots are introduced into the game, it LAGS the game, because of the raw amount of data that must now be communicated (similar to MINES, they can/do LAG games).



I KNOW this is going to be an extremely controversial OPINION, because without me KNOWING for sure, I THINK the majority of the most successful strat'rs today, use CCA, use DUAL BLAST, and APC PILOTS.

Again, in *MY* "OPINION", "Strategy" is about exploiting the weaknesses in your OPPOSITION, NOT exploiting flaws, weakness in the GAME itself.

Lastly, in *MY* "OPINION", I think the highest level of "STRAT" (IE - "Pro" strat) should be played on a 100% "LEVEL" playing field, OR *BOTH* sides using the same UNITS *IE - NSDF). Just like Chess is played, same pieces, same capabilities, same board.

On one last note regarding "DUAL BLAST"... I don't know anyone that has ever considered a PURE DM'r as a GREAT STRAT'r. I don't know ANY PURE DM'r that thinks DUAL BLAST is reasonable representation of SKILL in ANY WAY in a DM game. YET here we are, exploiting the the least favored DM tactic in BZ (other than a HACK) in DM, and exploiting it in a STRAT game as a primier "STRATEGY"?

I admit, that when I look at my OPINIONS objectively, it appears even to me, as though there is a BIAS to what it is I know, I do, and use the NSDF units. But, at the end of the day, in the ultimate test of "PRO" strat, the playing field should be UNQUESTIONABLY "LEVEL", and that requires the same UNITS. AND, by hook or by crook, I think most would agree that the NSDF units are the icon of what represents "Battlezone".

I know I am going to REGRET posting this......... "BUT"

RE: APC Pilots, and MINES....

On paper it would look like a properly mined base would serve as an effective defense to an APC attack. SOME of the times it is...

STORY TIME:

Back in the day, the first few years of BZ, when there were 100's of players on the servers, and I had my STRAT MOJO really goin... I was playing "Yomamma" 1v1 on Blast Chamber, I was South, he was North. I had 6 MINERS, mining THEE ENTIRE North end of the map, several layers deep (I used to keep NAVS for the miners to PARK at, AT SUPPLIES, so my miners would NEVER run out of mines, and I literally CARPETED the map with MINES), so that a player could not even get CLOSE to firing range on my REC, not even close. I was away from my base, probably creating havoc for Yomamma's scavs, and WATCHED Yomamma go towards my REC for an end around while he KNEW I was busy else where. I didn't care, not in the least, as I KNEW he could not get close to my REC. I actually sat and watched him on radar, knowing he'd have to turn around... 30 sec later, my REC was DONE.

AFTER the game, we talked, and I asked him how the "H" he got my rec... and this is where I will live to REGRET POSTING this "tactic"....

A PLAYER can DIS-ARM a VAST MINEFIELD in BZ by *CAREFULLY* sneaking up on the EDGE of the field, and *CAREFULLY* "nudge" up on one of the mines on the edge to get it, JUST *ONE* to DETONATE, and it will start a CASCADE of detonations of a very large portion of the minefield for only very minor hull damage. REPEAT the same process, and you can clear 100's of Meters of MINES and have more than 1/2 your hull left, *AND* a FULL LOAD of AMMO... ONE DEAD REC, comin up!. APC's can do the same thing, pilots can do the same thing, players can do it. MINES are not THEE effective defense to APC's/PILOTS. and no GUN TOTING unit in BZ offers an effective defense, HOWIES are not sensitve enough.

Interesting topic...

Dual blast
When my bro and I were noobs, I remember him playing as CCA and blasting. While he was losing games he was ok (to others), but when he started winning some he became a blaster (pronounced like an insult), hated by most. He was then explaind by a "higher authority" that blasting is lame. So he started playing with the NSDF... During those days only available strat guide was that one mostly written by Dredd. He there said that dual blasts on a tank is lame, but in a few paragraphs later he said BUM is one of the best stratters and a master with the blasts. When asked to explain, if blast is lame or not, he said there is no lame weapon, only lame technique. I guess he didn't say anything.

Anyway, both my bro and I got rid off the blast, although we accepted other blasters. We wanted to win the game without playing "lame". As we were getting better we learned that blast is just another weapon. Confirmation of that came when we started slapping blasting BUM on a regular bases, by using NSDF.

When FPS bug got pretty bad, it was most noticable on the weapon like blast. At that point I suggested one modder to reduce blast to 250m in his mod. It was a silly idea and today I can't believe it was mine. The real solution was to fix FPS bug, which we'll get in 1.5. Then the blast won't be so dangerous.

Today, all pro stratters are trying to erase all silly rules that DMers brought to strat, like "build time", "rushing", "blasting"... it's a strategy, you should adapt. I posted a how-to-fight a blaster tutorial, you should check it out.

And no, all today's pro stratters use NSDF, except Jens using CCA but with blast/SP stabber combo (pure blaster BUM is kinda retired). HAL can be equally efficiant with both species, but he uses SP stabbers when CCA.

I'll cover mines and APC's a bit later. Hope to hear more thoughts from you.

very good thoughts wall. i agree dual blasts on everything is rather lame and not very strategic, and pure DMing in strat is extremely lame and usually results in annoyance and slapping. if i play as the CCA (which is almost never cuz i hate the slow, loud, POS-sounding ships of theirs) i do put blast in the GTs cuz chain guns are crap. but thats it.

good camparison to chess about using the same sides. i totally and always will prefer the NSDF.

APCs indeed can be a problem; however i have found that

1) not many ppl know how to use them effectively.
2) enough GT defense before they get to the rec will hold them off
3) bombers vs pilots generally leans in the bomber's favor
4) i rarely experience lag from soldiers

and lastly, while yes the possibility of disabiling a minefield so easily can be a prob, few ppl i play know to do that, and when they dont, mines make short work of APCs.

very good opinions though. im glad someone else looks down on "dm strat"

Maybe I wasn't clear in my previous post, but the point of it was saying that blasting is not lame, no matter how you perform it. Only newbies and DM'ers trying to strat cry about stuff like that. In a pro strat game tanker doesn't win the game, even if he has dual blasts on it, AI wins the game. "Old" stratters, who only post today have no idea what happened with the strat over the years...

The chess thing that Wall mentioned... the one who says that white and black pieces are equal has no clue about the chess. White is much stronger and the one who ever played it will know why. Beside, Chess is TBS, BZ is RTS, so comparation is dumb.

If your opponent picked CCA, you are not forced to pick NSDF. If he's better than you when he is CCA you NSDF, and when both CCA, then he's better overall cause even if you are better when both NSDF, it is still 2:1 for him.
BZ with only NSDF wouldn't be so special. The beauty of it is in 2 species, so similar and again so different.

i see you points. thank you for the enlightenment.

and i definately agree that BZ is much better with having 2 sides; nor would i pick CCA if my oponent picks NSDF, or vice versa.

LMAO, and you call yourself a pro stratter?! You mentioned only Minelayers as a good defence against APC pilots... you forgot Bombers who are the best against them. Turrets can also "see" pilots and any unit defending something (for example tank defending Recycler).


Maybe pilots lagging were an issue 5-6 years ago, when most of us had slow PC's (except you who had 400FPS). Today even average PC can hold steady 60FPS, even with the hundreds of APC pilots present. I never saw mines lagging, must be something 10 years old? Anyhow, few players shouldn't do something that majority can't accomplish (like BFT playing with visibility of 300), but majority shouldn't avoid completely legitimate APC tactic, only cause few get FPS drops when doing so.


NSDF = Americans in Space, CCA = Russians in Space. So no wonder you (TheWall from Ohio, USA) think so.

There was this board, BZC was its name, where 90% of the active members were Americans, with bigot admins, so they thought that the whole game belongs to them. Due often discrimination (and some other things) non-Americans stopped going there long ago, while few remaining Americans eventually got tired of talking among eachother, so the board died.

I know one Russian who told me how he doesn't enjoy in BZ single player anymore, cause after finishing SP few times, he can't find many CCA IA missions. He explained me how constantly killing CCA with NSDF isn't his cup of tea. I understand him perfectly. I wanna see you, TheWall from Ohio USA, trying to explain that Russian that NSDF "is" the icon of BZ.

I just checked top 5 players from the last strat tournament, only 1 American there.

First BZ campaign is NSDF, so 1st CCA mission is actually 18th mission and with knowing how most DM'ers never got beyond 5th mission and that Stealth tank is their favorite ship, it is expected that NSDF is their first BZ association, but I think every real BZoner (stratter who can DM) will agree that the icon of what represents Battlezone are NSDF units fighting CCA units, with few Furies in the background.

In reply to Wally's second post, where he wonders why 6 miners didn't save his undefended recy:

Every pro stratter knows that miners are cruical defensive unit, but every pro stratter also knows that mines are there only to buy you some time (if the opponent starts clearing the minefield with the mortar), or to wound your opponent (if he decides to go through them). You can't rely only on mines.
In first scenario you should come back "home" in the same time he managed to clear the path, with addition of you having more ammo than he does, cause he wasted some on the mines.
In second scenario, you should have something at home, guarding the recy, that should be able to destroy his (due mines) damaged tank.

The REC was not otherwise "undefended". But since that mis-statement suites your biased aggenda, continue to flap your lips in your unsupported interpretations.

OFF-TOPIC RE: Spock's "Fight a Blaster", and the video he had posted. There is not one instant within the video he presented that would have happened, had it not been for the good graces of BUM bringing the action to Spock. It is infinitely easier to DEFEND a base area, than to extend and attack. What Spock showed in that video was relatively well played BASE SITTING, or in other words, a somewhat skilled NOVICE. BASE SITTING is BZ101, or as Spock had said, when he was just learning.

Anyone with a brain, can do the basic logic, that if 2 or more players BASE SIT, the game will last for eternity. Being the most stubborn person, that cannot or will not make any sort of a legitimate offensive strike, is not a skill. The difficulty of being able to make an effective offensive assualt, without losing all your scrap AND not lose your critical units, is exponentially more difficult in BZ than being and effective base-sitter.

Any "Pro-Stratter" recognizes this as one of BZ's axioms, and why in most of the scenario's where truly experienced BZ strat'rs play each other, it results in the collision of 2 offensive strikes opposing each other, somewhere else on a map, other than one of the 2 players "bases".

Building a hanger, supply, and a silo on the doorway to your base area, is chicken-sheet/novice BZ.

That should give you kiddies something to chew on for a while, again... have fun!

Wally, you were telling the story, not me, and you mentioned no defense, so it was not my misinterpretation, it was you telling the story wrong, or you are changing it now? If you really did have defence and yellow tank managed to destroy your rec then maybe you don't know how to properly set a defense line? That's another subject then, not a "useless" mines anymore. Check my strat guide, it might help you or we can start another discussion - Defense around recy 101.

As for me basesitting like a novice, I laughed on that one for a while... My way from a newbie to a pro was extremely fast so I don't remember anyone ever calling me a strat noob or a basesitter. Hearing this from a man who hides in BZE, from someone who's notorious for using high FPS over the years and from someone I beat 2 out of 2 times we played (1 real 1on1 strat) is... can't find a word good enough, so I'll just say - pathetic.

Video of that game is 10 mins cause that's YouTube limit and obviusly I decided to show the end. Your wrong interpretation of me basesitting can be proved easily - first check Map layouts then ask a friend (if you have one) to test where are the spawns on that map and in which order they are associated. Then compare that with the BUM's and my base on that video. (You are not doing that, you decided to read further). OK. Even average stratter knows that on Ice Ice Baby sync off host spawns North and 2nd player spawns SE (sync on is vice versa). Are things becoming more clear to you now? Not yet? OK, I'll explain some more... On that video, BUM is north and I'm SW, meaning he started the game earlier (sync off) and despite that I decided to take a risk and move my production units from SE to SW. When I got there BUM already built Towers with dual blasts in front of my new base. Like that I got only that scrap around neutral geysers, while he got the scrap from the 3rd passage. If you don't remember newbie, that's more scrap overall for him, plus I'm not in my base, so in case I die I probably lose the game, and already mentioned dual blast GT's in front of my entrance. So, as you can see, no one was basesitting, BUM had his outpost in front of 3rd spawn, while I moved my stuff on the 3rd spawn. Due being blasted it took me a while to get out, but I made it, didn't I? Even though I was late in the game and even though I wasn't that good in 2007. It was extremely funny reading you complaining how I did it the "wrong way" (the noob way) cause I built silo, supply and hangar on my way out. WTF?!

Now you made me brag... Unlike you, I didn't get my strat glory during FPS days, I got it after and it still lasts. Where are you newbie? Beside, my score with you is 100% in my favor. You can challenge me any time if you think you got what it takes. I'll record it and then we can discuss it. JonBlund can be our witness, loser posts, what you say? Ice Ice? You will see my "basesitting" strategy... I won't let you even build a silo... If you think you are too rusty, I'll play you 2 vs 1, you can pick anyone for your teammate. I already slapped BUM and Jens teamimg on that map many times. Or maybe you want to play me on the next strat tournament? Take a pick.

I didn't mention the SUN either, by this you can rationally deduce it does not exist?

Lastly, RE: your alleged record against me. #1, if you did win against me as you allege, I can assure you it was a GG, if not, obviously, you'd have no reason to be bragging about it. #2, Notice how it is, that you seem to care whether or not you win or lose, be it against me, or anyone else? ME, I don't care, with the exception of the lame-brained/egotistical people (idiots, that don't have a life) that seem to have an aggenda to make some LIFE meaninful issue of if, until the end of time... GEeeeeeee... thats not what YOU are doing, is it?? (IE - get a life) #4, I just have a hard time fathoming that winning a game against you adds anything to my life... BZ or otherwise.

There is only ONE GAME I can remember winning: just shortly after I'd started playing BZ (a relative novice), I'd played someone by the name of "Tim the Original". Anyone that was around in those days, remembers he was a notorious poster, much to the likes of you, crowing endlessly of his superlative BZ prowess. The game went alot like that video you posted of BUM, he attacked with little success.

Dummy, Sun is not important when it comes to the strat game. Base defense is.

Look newbie, you came here whining about lame blasts, apcs, miners, CCA and who knows what else. I explained you that it's all in your head. Then you attacked my win over sync off BUM, falsely called it a base sitting game and added few more silly comments... I proved you wrong, reminded you of my superiority over you and offered you a shot at the title with Jon Blund as a witness. Now I'm idiot with no life and you are some super dude? LMAO! Take the challenge or run back to that rat hole where you came from.

This all sounds pretty much like in the old days People were provoking and challenging eachother til one died in game, or til one just left the situation and thus lost without that GG. Great lobby entertainment, or forumsoap in this case.

I don't think BZ is served in any way to be all too kind in an attempt to get along with everybody. BZ would be a boring place without the provoking and challenging. It seems it's 3-0 to Spock.

Regarding the blasts, mines and apc's: The player has to use that what is available to create ballance. It really is all there in the game, you just have to find it. Those who do not addapt will either leave or go ask modders to find the ballance for them.
Btw, without the NSDF vs CCA thingy BZ would've probably lost close to 50% of it's appeal. So one has no choice than to appreciate the differences I guess.

Wally sure has the capability to get back in shape. He seems just not ready for a wholehearted attempt for now. But be carefull, allthough BzE and the 911 server might not be the best place for practice, he may be in training

LOL, what a funny topic.

Wally says "dual blasts on your tank is not strategy". It's DM, which is part of strategy. Blast is one of the CCA's advantages over NSDF. Player should use that advantage any way they can.

As for the "Icon" that represents BZ, watch the intro video. You see a battle between NSDF and CCA. The Furies come later, and they are certainly a BZ Icon too. It's everything: the game play, the weapons... you name it. All that is BZ.

Overall, the only thing I see Wally talking about in this topic is his attempt to impose his strat rules on us. Trying to tell us not to use APCs... nice try.
The Sun? What? OK... if you have a glare on your monitor from the sun, stop playing by open window in the daytime... that's got to be the dumbest excuse I ever heard!

You don't like your opponent to repair, reload, or get scrap. I see how you roll.


If brute force is what you want, go for it! Equip your Stolis with blast, build Golems. Blast is a great weapon. Blast is in CCA Armory for more than just Gun Towers. Think outside the box. If your opponent doesn't know how to counter a certain tactic, then use it! Beat the crap out of your opponent! This is war!

Go ahead and be a base-sitter... be a sitting duck and give your opponent an easy win. Perfect example is when Golem base-sits and HyperFighter beats him. HyperFighter impresses me, his tactical knowledge and how fast he learns is incredible.

OK, rant over.