Battlezone 1

I was asked to play strategy with the clanmembers and report here what was good or went wrong. It was Noonee, Fred and Marnix vs me. Their mission was making as much trouble for me as possible.

Map was Canyon Madness. I had Marnix on my left side, he was very early at his right 4-geyser area. Same with Noonee who was located to the right of me. I lost some scrap because of a silo that was taken out + scavs were shot at so that they returned empty to my rec. As the first scrap came in I built tanks for early rec-defense + more scavs.

I went towards center with constructor and a few scavs. Marnix and Noonee were there too and were after my silos/scavs again. But after the first 5-10 min it was me who had most of the scrap. I decidet to set up at my left 4-geyser area. Built 6 guntowers, 5 dual miniguns turrets and 2 miners for recycler defense.

Canyon Madness has two 4-geyser areas where AI units can get up the cliff. These are good to place howies on, they will reach distant targets from there.

(Noonee noticed I deployed 3 howies there and was up there in time to destroy them. What he did not notice were his scavs collecting the scrap and he lost them. He also lost his tank, so it was me who endet up with more scrap in the end)

Right after Marnix attacked with scouts and tanks. I had my factory in front of my recycler defense. Marnix took out the factory but then lost many of his units which gave me more scrap.

(Marnix attack failed because he did not plan it more carefully. A base attack always start with reconasance. A weak base can be wiped out by rushing in with 5 offensive units. A strong base requiers an outpost and/or moving production units closer to the enemy base - short supply lines)

I rebuilt factory. Noonee destroyed another 2 howies. The third time I deployed howies on top I actually got to them to fire at Noonees base.

I can't remember Fred attacked a lot. But both him and Marnix were killed several times because they sneaked around on foot in my base.

(When sniping always try to stay in the shade or other dark places. If not your shadow will be seen pretty clear from a long distance. It was this that cost both of you several lives.
Typekilling: Marnix asked me a question and sniped me while I answered. Remember that this can make a lot of players mad. "Typekilling" is seen as "lame")

My base was well defendet and I went to attack Noonees' with 10 stock tanks. After that it was Freds and Marnix' turn. I have to mention that some of your trouble was not being allied. For teamgames always remember to press M at gamestart. That will display the players and their player number. Simply press "Y", hit the number of the player you want to ally with and Enter. To unally: Press "U" and playernumber and Enter.

All were aware of that slow scrap collecting was your main problem. That has to do with not knowing the map good enough.
Also, the better players have speedet up their scrap and building rutines to the max. In addition they have a plan B, C, and so on, if they would be disturbed in what they are doing. This is developed by years of play.
But 10-20 games + a few tips can be enough to improve 100%.

I reported in the lobby for DM practice - if I'd known we were going to do Strat practice I would have at least started sober, however....



I took that silo but it may have been within the 5min limit - sorry, nerves.

I found that one shot on a scav (I call it 'smacking') causes him to stop collecting and go 'crying home' to mamie (recycler), where he sits there for a bit next to mamie and sulks and tells her about that nasty man that 'smacked' him, and only after that does he go back to scrap collecting.

So it's an economic way of slowing down opponents scrap collecting. But I don't know wether, if there is a silo nearer, he will go there to 'sulk' instead.

And Twisted Steel's army of scavs is very difficult to 'smack' en masse, especially when you're low on ammo after big battle.



That completely threw my game - seeing howies up on a platue above my base and bombing it, when I didn't even know it was possible! All I cuold think was to destroy them personally, like in that mission, when if I'd been sober I might have got it together to set up counter batteries.

Anyway, so all that dealing with the howies, meant the rest of my game - base building, scrap collecting, attack force building - all got neglected. Nice move, Jon.

(Oh and just to keep it factual - with the loss of my joystick lately, it meant that I was accessing menus with keyboard - peering up at screen, peering down in the dark on worn keyboard numbers...devastatingly slow, when all my previous strat existence I used the joystick hat to issue commands while flying around. But of course that's my problem, not yours. )



I should have stuck to bomber - choosing a tank at start for it's extra capabilities, was a mistake because even your AI was taking me down becuase I was in an unfamiliar vehicle.

After your tanks took out my base, including me , I got lucky and sniped a ride.

So I went looking for a friendly base to sit in - I went flying round and couldn't find any bases left. That was a shock - to think that you could have taken out 3 guys (no matter how disorganised and/or inexperienced) so easily and quickly!

Frightening really - enough to make one give up the booze!



Excellent, thanks Jon.

Ouch yeah need to be sober and have a mouse lol. Btw it may have been the Gen who should have played instead of you. Can't remember, never mind..

There's was no buildtime so that silo was no problem. Normally we do everything to slow down opponents scrap intake. That includes killing constructors, silos and scavs.

Yeah the scavs do return to recycler when shot at, not the nearest silo. If you lose recycler they go to factory, and finally armory. In fact I dunno what they do when no production units left.

If you guys are interested we can practice more. Just hook me in lobby or make appointments here.

hilarious!

Sorry for intrusion on your clan's forum but these stories are really great.
If it is not allowed to double post, in deficiency of war stories, you should at least add this link to the Warstories Strategy.


Noonee, you should choose a tank in the future strat practices also, but try a few tank DMs before... remember, practice makes perfect.

Looking forward to the next NøJ strat practice…

Weell, before anyone does that let me say that this lil' old ~NøJ~ forum is a ok for this ~NøJ~y stuff.



Yes, good advice...but I'll have to see about it tho'...don't tanks give you cancer?



You maybe Spock, but I'm not! :unsure:

Unfortunately it was Noonee who became cannon fodder once again in a testgame arranged by Dx a few days ago.

I dunno if you had a mouse/joystick this time. Anyway that what happened when Dx asked me to attack was that your defense, Guntowers and Turrets, were staring at a wall while being shot in pieces.

This happens when AI are targeting enemy units they can't hit (I found just enough cover for my tank in a corner in a wall and did not participate in the fight til my tanks had taken out most of your defenses)

You can say that your defenses were pretty good, but not placed in the right area. Vet stratters see this imediately and will exploit it.
If better positioned I would have attacked in a diferent way and I would not been able to wipe out a base that easy.

Well thanks for the revealing information, Jon - to think the player tank can mesmerise the robotic units by getting within their range but hiding behind a wall - how strat has moved on since the old days! That ace strat player who said that the upcoming straters would discover unimaginable tactics as time went on predicted correctly.

It seems that strat has moved on to the point where a casual strater, which is all I ever was, hasn't got a hope against to-days experienced players.

It's not that I mind losing, it's just that I'm only human and need some little reward - any reward - for the investment, both temporal and phsycological, of participating in a strat game. (Like in the game which you started this thread with, where, having lost everything and flying in a sniped tank, I saw you in the centre of Canyons doing something ahead of me while 2 SP-stabbers, which you'd had called up, floated down behind you. Of course I sailed on and snapped them up behind your back which, although I know it's petty, has given me a good memory from that game. (A little reward.)

Or there was a moment in an Ice game (don't know if it was the same game as in your latest reply) where I was trying a new weapon in the grendel - flash cannon! I found myself in a life or death dogfight (as one does) with what type of opponent, AI or human, I don't know. But the combo of flash and rockets worked a real treat!

It's that pause, that waiting foe the rockets to re-arm that's the killer for a grendel, especially against a tank because the developers had timed it so brilliantly - that the 'rocketee' recovers a split second before the rockets re-arm.

So therfore I'd reasoned that a 'dash of flash' betwean the rockets re-arming was a grendels best friend and my opponents worst nightmare - boy does that flash burn with a freezing flame!

And so it was - I bombed the sucker, then while waiting for the rockets to re-arm I dabbed him with the flash - 'freezing' him until my rockets re-armed to finish him off.

I saw him go skyward, and anticipating the sniper danger, I 'painted' the flash skywards along his trajectory, and was rewarded with an exploding body! No more sniper danger!

So anyway the point of all this is that I sincereley hope that that there are some 'scraps' left on the strategy table for the lesser straters.

I think there are.

(If anyone (not just <~NøJ~ers) has some 'strategy scraps' to relate (as opposed to whole warstories) then as moderator of this forum, I'd be very pleased to welcome them.)

I played 2 or 3 strats with Spock the other day,(he wooped me both times) and i realized that there wasnt that big of a difference in the skill lvl. He is like 10x better then me, i expected 50x (but he was going easy)

but as for early scavenging, i did fine, but what got me was 3 things. We were on compas, and he was north, i was south, and it got to a point where we both had 8-9 tanks, and the scrap was almost gone, so there was soon to be conflict. He pulled everything down to the SW geysers and attempted to set up. I think i got his constructer the 1st time, but then my scavs went relentlessly after that few pieces of scrap, and he had his tanks up there. So, i figured id go up there and try to get him. I attempted jon's strategy about attacking, but i think i screwed it up, seing as i lost almost my entire army, and he only lost 1 and maybe 2 tanks. He had 3 or more towers up by then, had al the scrap from the battle, and he was right next to me. I was in trouble.

I franticly rebuilt and recycled a few scavs. i got probably 3 or so more tanks, another dual SP for me, and 4 - 5 howies. I told my howies to go up the hill, while i took my tanks at his base. I actually timed it pretty well. Ofcourse, my 3 tanks and me got demolished very quickly, but my howies did some damage. Not enough (even close) to change the way the game went, but i tryed. At that point i had a rec, a factory, and me on the ground with about 10 sscrap. I said gg. :rolleyes:

GG Spock.

Ulfsaar

Shouldn't you have defended your howies for as long as possible rather than trying to attack at the same time as they started bombing? Surely 4 - 5 howies would take out a recycler quite quickly if told to target it.

Just discussing, cause I've only played that map a few times, so my opinion is squat.

the reason i did this was so that he could not go after me AND my howies all at 1 time.

Dunno if this whas the smart thing, but it appeared that way at the time.


ulfsaar

Ye I understand your point - protect the howies or protect yourself by splitting his attention.

It's just that with 4-5(!) howies the damage they could do when grouped and targeted must be awesome. I figure he would have to attack them first regardless of where ever you were, and if you'd been there next to them not just directing their fire, but protecting them.....I dunno.

I see, now I know who stole those SP's. Such things stay funny.

Howies are terrible when the opponent first has got them into position in range of your base. When it first starts raining mortars its often too late to do anything against it. When you are not able to destroy them quick, base-moving is the only option.
You can easily get trapped by howies. You often do not see them on your screen, not even on radar.

Remember howies are not very effective when firing straight east or west. Moving them 1-200 meters south/north, if possible, will solve this.

This "east-west bug" has very often caused lag, and also hack accusations, in both strategy and DM. Before you start shouting at your opponents, take a look at radar and how you are positioned.

Right, so Ulsfaar should have definately chosen to defend his howies - as long as he was aware of east-west bug!



I'll take the memory to my grave...hehehe

GG's Ulfsaar,

In the last 2 weeks I played more games and more opponents than in whole 5 months before that. I now have around 40 online games (15 tough) in my fingers, so, I guess, I'm in some kind of good form.
But then again, that form is nothing compared to the form of a few other guys on the net. Some of them I can't beat at all, some I can only when they are having a bad day or problems with their computers.

For me, the ending of game, when both players are well settled and have similar amount of scrap, is still the hardest part, especially when I have poor DM compared to them.
But I suppose the end should go something like this: you got to have howies into the right position before your opponent does the same. You got to have silo near his base and scavengers ready (under one 'F', following that silo or something).
Now, there are two options: 1. shooting with howies on opponents recycle, force him to withdraw and then collect the scrap he left. Then repeat that and the game should be over soon…
2. shooting on opponents units and towers with howies, soft them, and then order a mass attack with your offensive units.

In both cases you have to defend howies and DM your opponent to keep him on distance. And, of course, you always have to spread them, cos of E-W bug like Jon said, and also, is they are spread, your opponent will have to kill them 1 by 1. Worst thing you can do is to leave them where the factory ejected them. Like that 5 howies can be killed by only 1, on the other side, very quickly.
During those actions, there will be scrap between you. Collect that scrap only when you are there, and your opponent is not, be very quick, use only 1 or 2 scavs for that and be sure they are following you before and after collecting.
If I'm wrong, or there is a no.3. please someone correct me. :unsure:

In your game with me, you should (that's what would I do) first attack with howies, defend them like Noonnee said, and then eventually occupy that scrapfield. You did that the wrong way, that's why you lost. After your first attack, I had all the scrap, and I only know 1 player who can come back to life after losing everything…

You'll see, in our next game you will be much better cos now you know me and my style of playing. And when you encounter a few more strat players, no matter if you lose or win, you will learn something new and you will be able to add that to your game, and become better player.

i dont mind loseing. i mind loseing when i know i should have won. i was not upset from losing to Spock, and i learned a few things. but when i have the game in the bag and i blow it... (that is not what happend there, btw )


Ulfsaar

Spock, just in case you sail by this ~NøJ~ forum anytime, what's the name of that strater?

With every other strater is almost the same, at one point in the game I am aware that soon I will win, or that soon I will lose. When one of us has 3/4 of the scrap and the other one is pushed in the corner, there's no escape, there's no time for surprises, but with Him is a little bit different...

Every other strater in that scenario dies like a hero, bravely defending his rec until his last bullet, or tries to take out opponents rec, thinking of that as of his last hope (and dies there), but not Him...

He, after a big battle, in which He lost everything, smartly retreats and comes back with some unthinkable tactic :huh: which (almost) always works.
Every other player (including me) will die while desperately trying to get back that lost scrap, even though, in one little corner of our minds, we will know that can't be done, cos at that time our opponent is 3 times stronger then us, but we will do it anyway.

And that is what separates Him from other players, He wisely chooses His battles, He knows every map and every player perfectly. He then orders from armory specially designed weapon for his opponent. He moves His base and fakes that He has nothing left... But what He really does is recycles everything not needed and builds a small army for that particular situation on the field.

Sometimes, when I have more scrap than He does, I even try NOT to get Him airborne, I'm just trying to damage Him and then I let my drones to finish the job, cos when He is on foot (or in the air), He does miracles with sniper rifle and sometimes is better not to be there when He is blown in the air... :blink:

Who is He? I think you already know that... He is our buddy from the north... not from 'Sund, from 'Sand.

lo!! Spock! Thanks for comprehensive reply! Extremeley readable and interesting! Damn if I ever could sober up and get my joystick working, I'd then really like to have a try at that northern 'Sand' dude!

(Ye, I know who you mean.)

This is a tought one... who could it be?

(hint inserted )


Ulfsaar

am i right?

Hehe that was fun to read. Reminds me of how impressed and frustrated I became when playing Shogun, The Wall, Dredd and many more.
I kept playing them because losing against those guys wasn't a shame. Every lost game gave me a few more details about how they did it.
You'll pay me back 1 day Spock :unsure:

2 player paranoia. I start in top right, markluke bottom right. Scrap scouting, base building, unit creating, outlying silo building. Markluke first in to the attack with wave of tanks. All wiped out. Long lull. Decide on 2 base strategy. Order recycler (under escort) and armoury to top left, where utilising long lull, I fashion and preen a base my mother would want to decorate with vases of flowers. Have 2 bases now - factory base, top right defended by mixed bag of AI units and a few turrets and recycler/armoury base defended by turrets, guntowers and me. Markluke calls for some action, so I scout down the left side and find a silo defended by turret. I call my attack force and we go in. Waves of enemy tanks start arriving and an ongoing battle ensues now as to who can dominate this battle created scrap field. As these battles start to rage, my frame rate plummets and the whole screen starts to jerk and I find I can't hit a thing and am constantly blown out of my tank or bomber. My old AMD 300, which I have to kick(!) while hot-wiring it so that it will actually start, is no match for markluke's Alienware computer. Inevitably I start to lose lives but because we're both relearning BZ strat neither of us noticed that the game was set with only 2 lives. And so the game ends when I lose that second life.

In 2 subsequent games with markluke I've formed the opinion that he has the making (or re-making) of a good strater because he has this ability to keep up the pressure. Inspite of my problem with frame rate so that I was not able to help my AI much in battles, still those tanks of his just kept coming and coming and I just couldn't dominate the scrap fields, which meant he was creating enough pilots and getting enough of the scrap and this in only 3 games in many years.

I played 2v1 against Spock last night.

me+The Emporrer

Emp is actually pretty good. He played CCA. Spock and i both went Bdog Tanks.

I will just say before i start that i had a freeze and ctrl+alt+deleted out. Then accidentally chose hardware to run on. The map (3 pronged venus, cant remember the name) was green, and my tank was blue. There was no text, so i was at a severe disadvantage. But it probably would have went the same way.

Usual scrap collection, Spock was on top prong. He and emp went into immediate conflict, and he moved east to the geysers on cliffs up there. I swept up from my western position, and wiped out his armory, and 1 or 2 silos and scavs with some tanks. He came back up and knocked me and my tanks out, but i sniped 3 of his tanks and bailed 2 of em. This was critical. I really messed up doing that. All of that scrap was now in his posession.

Somehow, Emp died 2x early game, then got sniped(?) by Spock. Not good communication there.

By then, i lost another wave of tanks. I was low on scrap, so i pulled a few solo misions into his base. I got killed once earlier, and once on one of those missions. But i took out his factory and some tanks and howies.

I was almost ready for one more desperate atack, and i wanted to take out his howies and mine field. He came at me with dual sps and i went airborne. He was just out of range to hit with plasmas, so i tried airsniping him. 0/2. I landed not far away, and he came at me to end it.

I made the best snipe i have EVER made in my entire life. He came so close to me, his ship took up my entire scope. He was strafing at full speed. I moved my mouse as fast as i could and clicked. I got him!

I grabbed another ship and moved in. only had 3 other tanks, but i tried. I almost got to his main base.

Dunno how it happened, i cant remember, but he wiped my tanks and me out. I grabbed a vacant minelayer, i always left one sniped one somewhere, and i went as fast as i could to my base.

It was over, he had me easy, and he said he needed a break. GG Spock.

Ill get you next time.


Ulfsaar

Great stories guys!

You see Noonee, 'amateur' war story could be much more interesting than 'pro' war story. 'Pro' players already know what is the best tactic for them, and most of the games they play the same way. After a few described games, there's no much to say, cos it gets repetitive...
So Noonee, future bros duels you can freely post on Warstories Strategy.

New players are still discovering how different ships and weapons function, where the scrap lies on different maps and so on. For them there are a lot of different tactics for winning the game. After a 100 played games you will only have plan A and plan B. But don't get me wrong, it doesn't get bored no matter how much games you played, cos with every new player you'll meet you'll encounter some new tactic, and you'll have to adjust yours a little bit to be able to defeat him. By doing that you are forming yourself as a player and you're becoming better and better...

Also against player who has the same skills as you have, playing is always a challenge. I have played more games with my bro than with all other players together. I have to add here that our skills are not at the same level anymore , and even though I win less games than he does, beating him, from time to time, still feels good. B)

GG Ulfsaar and Howitzer! If you two have worked together you would have probably defeated me. I lost a lot of my stuff while moving my base and when Howie attacked me. I was lucky that you were busy killing my armory and silo on the other side... So when I pushed Howie back, I came for you...
Howie died too soon (my howitzers took last Howitzer's life ), I had a lot of scrap, so the rest was easy... Great snipe in the end, if you have done that while Howie was still alive... who knows how that game would end...

Btw, after that strat I played a little DM and snipe with Ulfsaar. He ate me in snipe. My head still hurts. :ph34r:

Good recounting, Ulsfaar - puts my dry effort to shame. I guess it's best to write a report when it's still fresh in the mind that way you don't lose the detail. You had a lot of different things happening in your game with Spock (not least that snipe) whereas in my first 2 games with my brother, it was a lot simpler. Basically, apart from one foolish early attack of his, the games were base building, scrap collecting and first major contact in the field. On first major contact all effort was now placed in dominating the enlarging srcapfield, by building more and more reinforcements and calling them up. All was hinging now on who was cordinating a dozen different factors the better, while at the same time personally joining in the affray. No commanders since when kings used to participate in battle, have had to fight for their lives while weighing up the strategical and tactical situation simultaineasly as in BZ strat!

Oh man, the adrenalin rush as your force clashes with the enemy force and there you are in the thick of it trying to do some good; but no matter how good you personally do, if your oppopnent is co-ordinating the factors better than you are, you've had it. And I'm just talking about a fight over a scrapfield, albeit the last one. Experienced players must be judging up their options with the whole map in mind.

But the thing that struck me in these three games, more than I'd realised before, was the importance of being master of the scrapfield. It's all very well taking out this or that of his (except recycler) but if he's there to pick up the scrap before you, your victory was a minor tactical one. Silos and scavs are as important as tanks and guntowers. He who enters a battle without the subsequent silo/scav factors sorted in advance and in place, will be the loser to the one who has.

Really, it's just a question of looking after your supply lines.


I take all your points Spock (especially the one about being beaten by your own bro )

We are rediscovering BZ strat but at our own time and our own pace.

100 games! - I haven't played 100 strat games in my entire BZ life.

And we're no spring chickens anymore man - the energy of youth has gone.

But we are lovers/addicts of this fabulous game - CYA in the zone. Great post.

Yea. I did great at snipe. Never tried it before, but the game started to clear out, it was a colli game, and after everyone left, i tried jumpsniping. It is hard, never tried it before. Then we had a bunch of sniping duels in the spawn corner. After 20 minutes, we started bailing from ship to ship at the same time, trying to Air to Air snipe eachother.

Great fun.

That is where i can beat Spock with some consistancy. He always wins strat, DM we are about the same, snipe i win

In the DM i had him directly in my scopes for an airsnipe, and then

He hit me with a MINE!?!?!? i was atleast 40 feet in the air! <_<

Also, we actually did try to get you at the same time, each going up along the sides of the map. You were just on his side of the map, and by the time i reached you, ... Dont know what happened.

Where did those tanks come from? You had a whole platoon, thought you just fought Emp.


Ulfsaar

It means he had his AI organised into 2 waves - same thing happened to me against markluke in 3rd game.

I came from the north, and emp from the south. i thought the timing was ok, 30 second overlay, no more for sure. there were atleast 8 tanks, i sniped 3 and still could not take them all. jon and i tried a few experiments with that, and found with a stock grizzl, i could take .. 6-7 ai? one of those.


Ulfsaar

I think it means that he has a very efficient and fast, scrap to (new) tank ratio.

Ie. he was making them as fast or even faster than they were being killed.

Yes I remember Ulfsaar, but I think you used dual SPs? I also told you it is seldom a player is so effective as you were that time against a pack of well commandet tanks.
It just is like that. Some players get slaughtered by 2-3 AI tanks. Others stay alive even in the crossfire of +5 tanks and the player.
Knowing about this is useful. I would be more careful next game and maybe upgrade tanks to make them more effective.
Attention: Not saying you "lag"! More or less saying that in Strategy you have the possibility to deal with different connection/hardware details.

And yes Noonee, Choosing time and place for conflict is essential. And also keep overview so that you know which units are lost and need to be rebuilt and called to the front asap. Without scavs, constructor, silo, supplies (or recycler) close to the battlefield, you can win a good battle, but not the war..

now that i think about it, it was dual sps. Stok was 5. thats it.

i am very good with stabbers. When i dm, there are always mags, and pounding a purple ball up someone's tailpipe is easy. That is why my score usually hovers around 1/1 in all tanks. I hosted a stabbers only game, and went about 3/2.

Also, just strafing backwards is not to hard. I love when the AI's q slow move and stare at the ground while you pound them. B) With a human with dual sps, i might get 1 or maybe 2 if i am lucky before dieing(i tried htis on Spock whos a bit above average dmer)

I would be interested to se how a human would stand against a guntower, or against a bunch of bombers. Sometime we should try it.


Ulfsaar

Yes you SP very well (darn teenagers )

;) thanks.


Ulfsaar